Interesting Call

[TeeDub23 0]

Well, we finished up our season and it was fun! Our league doesnt have a championship, so we played our last weekend double header and requested the other good team come down our way and play. They did and it was a battle!

We played them very well. It started really bad, they scored on their first play of the game as they ran through 3-4 players that missed the flag and scored. We then settled in and were winning at halftime 13-12 plus we got the ball. I then made the mistake of trying to throw over their best player and he picked us off. But we held them on defense. It went back and forth and then the ref changed the game on us.

They got it at the start of their drive on their 5 yard line. We blitzed and got a safety, but the ref called it off and said that 7 seconds had expired and gave them the ball back. Yes, we have a 7 second pass rule. That hurt bad as their QB was running around in the end zone running away from our defenders and we got the safety just to have it called back. Even if it was a coverage sack, it still should have been a safety. So, that was a big turning point in the game. They ended up scoring on that drive and we battled back and forth to the end and I think they won by a little, but it was a fun and tough game. They were the typical hand it off to the fast guy and let him jitter bug back and forth until he can out run our defense. We played our game of spread it out and hit the defense weaknesses and holes. It was a great game and I was so proud of our team!

Now on to summer basketball!

[Texas_D_Coach 14]

Sounds like a great game.

Your play call had me thinking whether or not it should have been called a safety or not, as I can't remember having that call in any of our games before.

But according to the NFL youth flag league rules (which also has a 7 second clock) it is not a safety if QB reaches 7 seconds in the end zone. Here is the rule I found:

" The quarterback has a seven-second "pass clock." If a pass is not thrown within the seven seconds, play is dead, the down is consumed and the ball is returned to the line of scrimmage. Once the ball is handed off, the 7-second rule no longer is in effect.

• a. If the QB is standing in the end zone at the end of the 7-second clock, the ball is returned to the line of scrimmage (LOS)."
  

So even though it was a bummer call, it looks like it was the correct one.

[Orange 26]

I agree, sounds like the right call. If there was no whistle and the ref decided after the safety, especially if it was borderline 7 seconds I could see you being concerned. But if it was truly 7 seconds, it was the right call to reset at the los.

[TeeDub23 0]

You are probably right. I am not sure it addresses this situation in the rule book and when it happened, no one heard a whistle or anything and the fact that he was being chased in the endzone that caused the 7 second rule, it seems a little unfair. However, we shook it off and smiled and played on. This league has never had good refs and is more about the sport, so we moved on quickly and I joked with the ref later about it.

Its all good, but to beat them would have been icing on a great season.

BTW, it was borderline 7 seconds and we were all walking to the other end of the field for offense when it was called.

[Johnp2 21]

However, we shook it off and smiled and played on. This league has never had good refs and is more about the sport, so we moved on quickly and I joked with the ref later about it.

You sir, have gained my complete respect with this sort of attitude. In the end, that is really all you can do (it's not like your going to change the official's decision). Of course everyone is watching you how act in that situation, so hold your head high knowing you handled it with class. Everyone who saw it knows...

[TeeDub23 0]

Yeah, you have to shake it off. It was funny, we played a double header that day and in the second game we played a team much inferior. We were not rushing and they would occasionally drop back to throw. So, when they did, we just dropped in coverage. In this play, the QB dropped back and kept looking for someone. As he threw the ball, the ref blew the whistle and our safety came up and picked it and was gone. Of course, it was the right call (close, but correct) and called back. I yelled from the sidelines at the ref, laughed and made the "I am watching you" sign with my fingers. Everyone was laughing (except maybe the other team).

[rickref 2]

Yeah, you have to shake it off. It was funny, we played a double header that day and in the second game we played a team much inferior. We were not rushing and they would occasionally drop back to throw. So, when they did, we just dropped in coverage. In this play, the QB dropped back and kept looking for someone. As he threw the ball, the ref blew the whistle and our safety came up and picked it and was gone. Of course, it was the right call (close, but correct) and called back. I yelled from the sidelines at the ref, laughed and made the "I am watching you" sign with my fingers. Everyone was laughing (except maybe the other team).

I have to chime in as this is in a way funny and I commend you on shaking it off. I am a 13 year Texas High School football official, 4 year JUCO, and I have some pro indoor under my belt. I coach a flag football team and we have similar 7 second rules as stated above. From a philosophy of calling a game perspective not alowing a safety is absolutley the best thing for the game. If it is not a loss anywhere else on the field why should it be a safety just because he is standing in the end zone not under duress? Yeah as I coach I would love the points but from a rules standpoint it is not consistent. At least how our league operates if the QB has a count and does not throw the down is over and you go back to the previous spot and the next down.

[Johnp2 21]

Rickref,

Thanks for the insite. It's good to hear from an experienced official. In thinking about this, I'm wondering if it really is the right call---playing devil's advocate here. ;-)

As TeeDub23 stated, his team rushed the QB and took his flag in the end zone. It appears the official "called it off" after the fact. Consequently, in your mind did time really expire? The official never indicated time expired until after the sack.... so it was a non-call. If he threw his flag and/or blew his whistle and called the play dead before the sack--then I understand. However, it appears he called it after the sack, then the sack happened first. (I hope this makes sense.)

An analogy is in tackle. Let's say you officiated a game and the play clock ran out before the Center snapped the ball, but no one called it. If an official came to you after the play and noted the play clock expired but because no one blew a whistle or threw a flag, does the play stand? I don't think officials should have the ability to make a call after the fact. It's like saying, "I meant to throw a flag, but I didn't." We all agree that is a slippery slope there.

Interesting to think about either way. Thanks!

[Coach Rob 26]

It appears the official "called it off" after the fact. If he threw his flag and/or blew his whistle and called the play dead before the sack--then I understand. However, it appears he called it after the sack, then the sack happened first. (I hope this makes sense.)

I think you're spot on. If the ref didn't throw a flag when the 7 seconds expired it should have been a safety, imo. Other infractions are always indicated by the ref throwing a flag for this very reason, so you know the timing of when the infraction occured. Maybe rickref can clarify. Can a ref "call off" a safety even if he didn't blow his whistle or throw a flag?

[TeeDub23 0]

Well, I asked for instant replay and they told me they didnt have that. LOL! You have to understand, in my situation, the ref is a high school kid that doesnt have a flag and your lucky if he blows a whistle. Nice kid, but this league is not the pinnacle of organized sport here. We play in this league as it is the only spring league we have. That is changing as I know of a couple more coming on board, but that is next year. The fall league here that we play in is indoor with scoreboards, two certified refs and weekly standings and a true playoff at the end. We have a draft where the kids participate in drills as the coachs scout and then snake draft the teams. It is fun!

To spark the discussion, I want to add my thoughts to it. If this was a championship game in a serious league and you start on the 5 yard line. the QB drops to throw the ball and say there is no blitz. His steps take him in to the endzone and everyone is covered. He keeps looking and the ref is hand counting (like back court in basketball) and 7 seconds go by and he doesnt pass it. Alright, I agree. The ball should come back to the LOS and it is a loss of that play. 2nd down lets play!

Now, lets say that the QB takes the snap and drops back to pass. The defense blitzes 2 and he immediately goes in to a scramble in to the endzone and is running from the blitzes (not really looking to throw). He has good speed and avoids a couple of flag pulls, but cant out run both and gets his flag pulled. Say that the flag pull happens at 6 or 7 or even 8 seconds. I think the play should be called a safety and the ball goes to the other team. The play would have resulted in the same outcome regardless of time. IF the play would have ended in a legit safety from the way it played out, it should not be called back and put on the LOS and they keep the ball. Even if the ref blew the whistle as they were reaching for the flag, the outcome would have been a safety.

Regardles of the rules, I dont agree with the outcome. But since it is the league it is, it is not worth yelling at the kid about. The kids will not remember that call later in life. So, shake it off.

[rickref 2]

John, TeeBub, Rob, you all have some valid points. It boils down to mechanics and experiance which at the youth flag football level your lucky to have a fraction of that.

If I am in this situation,( I have called flag football before including money tourneys in Roswell NM Hike it and Spike it), I guess I am not certain now after going back and reading is if the 7 second pass rule applies when your rushing. In leagues I am in and called for the time window is gone once a rusher crosses the line of scrimmage. But for sake of my perspective lets assume time applies even if rushing. In that case if he is not sacked, time expires, then he gets sacked, what you hope for is the covering official to be calling play dead so there is no confusion. Its a mechanics thing. Helps everyone involved know what happened. But bang bang as it is, I can see an inexperianced felow going blank and pausing. But absolutley yes he can fix/correct what he feels he needs to prior to another snap being made. The point is to get the call right regardless how bad your mechnaics are.

In a league where time to throw is out once you have a rusher in the equation then yeap saftey it is.

[rickref 2]

To answer this question:

"An analogy is in tackle. Let's say you officiated a game and the play clock ran out before the Center snapped the ball, but no one called it. If an official came to you after the play and noted the play clock expired but because no one blew a whistle or threw a flag, does the play stand? I don't think officials should have the ability to make a call after the fact. It's like saying, "I meant to throw a flag, but I didn't." We all agree that is a slippery slope there."

ON play clock running out before the ball was snapped, then it was snapped, and no one stopped it - That better NEVER happen in a game I call. Most games I am in someone has that clock (typically me because thats my posistion repsonsibility). If it does and they come back and say it never happened someone better have been blowing a whistle while play was going on. Else they just asked for a heap of trouble. True they could say it is a no play but I would hate to think of all the ramifications, butt chewings etc that they deserve.

Trust me when I say meaning to throw the flag but did not happens but no one I have ever been around comes back and enforces a penalty like that. Do we throw flags and pick up? Yeap and thats ok because someone might have seen something better and helped a crew get things right.

NOW Personal experiance - Last year I screwed up and was not watching the play clock once and two seconds after the clock expired the play ran. At snap I saw clock was at zero and did the "aw shucks" in my head but let it go. I found it later it was worse being two seconds expired. Got a little ribbing from the defensive coaches and head coach but I deserved it. Could I have killed it? Maybe. But in my mind I was not certain at teh time of snap how long it had been zero. Total bonehead on my part.

[rushbuster70 16]

The 7 second rule goes first.It wouldnt & shouldnt have been a safety.After the 7 seconds have passed the ball is spotted at the original LOS.

[rickref 2]

So a time count is still in efefct even though we have a rush. Then yes even though mechanically the official errored his call is correct by the way he fixed it. Good for him for correcting.

[Johnp2 21]

The 7 second rule goes first.It wouldnt & shouldnt have been a safety.After the 7 seconds have passed the ball is spotted at the original LOS.

I guess if protocol for this rule is to allow the play to unfold without noting the infraction until AFTER the play---then it was legit. I just cannot think of any infractions that are not called at the moment they occur.

We have a 7-second rule. In this instance the QB is down at the spot he was when the play was blown dead. Luckily our rule book does notate what happens if the QB is in the end zone--it's a safety. Regardless, the play is blown dead at the time the infraction occurs. Anything that happened prior to that (pass attempt, run, or sack) is counted because it occured prior to the call being made.

Anyway, it's better to debate it here, than on the field. ;-)