Do Most 6th Graders Serve Overhand?

[medpbuch 0]

Hi all! Brand new to this forum but I have been playing volleyball almost 30 years (Zoweeee, did I really just say that?) Played at collegiate level and have coached a bit here and there. I'm now coaching 6th graders, the youngest I've had. The athletic director has chosen to do only intramurals for this year, not sure why, but we're going with it. So we have about 30 girls, two coaches and a fairly small gym.

I assumed we would start with underhand serving, but apparently not. I struggled with shoulder injuries throughout my career from over and misuse, so I'm very sensitive to young bodies and things they should and should not be doing. Do most girls at this age really serve overhand? I know that control is the key but some of these 6th graders are smaller than my 4th grader and I'm not sure what to do. We made them each serve 10 balls underhand from the middle of the court, then moved them back to the end line. Once they did that, we had them move back up to the middle of court and try the overhand. It was chaos and my co-coach and I weren't quite sure where to go from there. I was coached with a lot of mental imagery and "mickey mouse drills" and I think I might go back to that route. See it in your mind being done the right way and then go out and do it. I saw somewhere on this site, someone mentioning not to say toss the ball but rather place the ball. I will definitely start using that terminology because the tosses were horrible. I also tried to pull girls out and take them to the wall to get their form correct. It just seemed they were so concerned with hitting it as hard as they could, they couldn't stop to listen and "hear" what we were saying. Of course, this was only our second practice, but I really felt that they had been listening well with everything else we went through. Serving was just kind of a shell shock for me that night.

My last coaching experience was about 10 years ago and most of my 8th grade girls served underhand. We worked on overhand and as they became more comfortable we started using it in the game. Also, do you have any particular serving drills that would work for 30 girls and one net? Wow, this gym seems to get smaller and smaller when we're all in there. I'm having a blast and hope that by the time my 4th grader gets to the program, we'll have things ironed out a bit more. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Mary Ellen

[Juniper1299 0]

Hi Mary Ellen!! Let me first say that it is great to have you as a member of the message board!! I am sure your experience will be valued by all. I coach 5th-8th graders so I can understand your situation. In my leauge, 6th graders are just getting the hang of volleyball. Some serve underhand and struggle with it others have a killer overhand serve already!! My sister is in 7th grade and just began working on overhand this season. Luckily she seems to have gotten the hang of it. I do not think that overhand serving is that important for the 6th grade level. However, it is important to lay the ground work... good toss and all of that jazz. What I stress to my girls is that I don't care how you do it, just get the ball over the net. You can have a great overhand serve but if you are not consistant it does the team no good to have you slamming balls into the net. What I stress is the toss. It needs to be high and in front of the player's body so that they can step IN TO the serve. One of the drills I used to stress this aspect of the serve is simply to have the girls toss the ball up and act like they are going to serve but instead of making contact with the ball, they just let it drop. The ball should drop next to their stepping foot, and their shoulders should be square with the court. Other than that, I really don't have any good drills for overhand serves. Sorry !! Anywhoo, I hope this helps!!

Juniper1299

[fmfjohn 0]

Medpbuch,

I tend to be longwinded on most of my posts so I'll try to be brief - for me.

The first thing I would do is try to determine if your players are physically ready to serve overhand from the endline. The best test I've seen is simply to have them attempt to throw the ball overhand over the net from behind the endline. If they can do that, they probably should begin learning to serve from there, but only in very short sessions with plenty of rest in between. If they can't, then I'd continue to work with them on their underhand serve. If they can throw it over, then start them at the attackline, which will help them be successful right from the start. (technique tips upon request:)

However, at the same time you can be setting the groundwork for future overhand serves by teaching them to floorspike properly. I have my players start at the attackline and work back slowly another ten feet max. In their practice, they will get the same - or slightly higher - toss (I still like to use the term "place or placement") and they also get to practice the footwork. The only additional thing I teach in the floorspike is to "point" at the ball with the index finger of their nonhittin hand, which will help them open their hitting shoulder into a better hitting position.

I'm sure you already know that your players will want to try overhand hitting from the minute they get into the gym, after you've shown them how. (and even if you haven't, they will do it their way

Just be sure that you really impress on them how potentially damaging it can be to their shoulders if: they don't warm up properly, and if they overdo it.

Drills: tape a line on side walls at net height then add a tape "spot" 12 to 18 inches above that as a target. Space you players at reasonable intervals along the wall(s) and about 15ft away and then have them "serve " to the spot. We sometimes score it 1 point for above the line and 2 points for within a foot of the spot. I really like to add the competition as it will keep their interest and gives them an object figure for gauging improvemet.

You might also like to try a "serving butterfly" drill, maybe starting serving and receiving from the attackline. If this isn't a familiar drill, let us know.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

john

[medpbuch 0]

Thanks for your responses. I like the idea of having them throw the ball over the net before they start serving overhand. Sounds like a good test to see if they are strong enough. I will also try to get a tape line up on the wall for them to practice on. I think we'll start out with serving next practice, after warmups of course. I'm a big believer in getting it over the net, whether it's overhand or underhand. I actually talked to them about that before serving for the first time. I asked them if it was game point in a match, and they knew they could get it over underhand and they weren't as sure for an overhand serve, which way would they serve? Most said underhand, but then once we strarted serving practice, they all wanted to do it overhand. I'm not real sure what you mean by the butterfly drill. I've been out of volleyball for a while and things are just now starting to come back to me. Again, thanks for your help.

Mary Ellen

[Bert 0]

Thanks for your responses. I like the idea of having them throw the ball over the net before they start serving overhand. Sounds like a good test to see if they are strong enough. I will also try to get a tape line up on the wall for them to practice on. I think we'll start out with serving next practice, after warmups of course. I'm a big believer in getting it over the net, whether it's overhand or underhand. I actually talked to them about that before serving for the first time. I asked them if it was game point in a match, and they knew they could get it over underhand and they weren't as sure for an overhand serve, which way would they serve? Most said underhand, but then once we strarted serving practice, they all wanted to do it overhand. I'm not real sure what you mean by the butterfly drill. I've been out of volleyball for a while and things are just now starting to come back to me. Again, thanks for your help.

Mary Ellen

I am from the Netherlands ...... I was wondering, how old are '6th graders'???

Bert

[medpbuch 0]

Hi Bert,

6th graders are generally 12 years old. And for most of them, this is their first real exposure to volleyball. I believe someone tried to run a two week session last year with them, but I really don't know much about what they did.

I am hoping to run a clinic/camp for 4th/5th graders at the end of our Intramural season so that eventually, younger girls can start in the program. Those girls would be 10 or 11 and I would have the same question for them. Thanks.

Mary Ellen

[Bert 0]

Hi Bert,

6th graders are generally 12 years old. And for most of them, this is their first real exposure to volleyball. I believe someone tried to run a two week session last year with them, but I really don't know much about what they did.  

I am hoping to run a clinic/camp for 4th/5th graders at the end of our Intramural season so that eventually, younger girls can start in the program. Those girls would be 10 or 11 and I would have the same question for them. Thanks.

Mary Ellen

Hello Mary Ellen,

Thank you for you're answer!

Kids at the age of 12 years old can serve with an overhand or learning the overhand serve on this level, over here, but I could imagine that you start with the underhand serve when most of the players never play volleyball before, perhaps you can even start with throw the ball. In 'our' circulation volleyball kids start also with throwing the ball, but I must say these kids are about 5 or 6 years old.

I think the way is:

1. throwing the ball over the net

2. use a underhand serve

3. use a overhand serve

My expercience, by the way, is that the biggest problem with the overhand serve isn't the way the bal is hit, but the way some one throw the ball in the air. Most of the times they throw the ball to high.

Let someone who will serve with a overhand serve first walk to the net. Let he raise his hand and he will see that when he will hit the ball with a straight arm, and he hit the ball with his hand or fist, the ball doesn't need to go to high to go over the net. The biggest problem is the velocity of the ball to reach the disctance some one want to give the ball.

Now, when some one throw the ball high the velocity downwards of the ball is higher than when some one throw the ball less high. When the velocity downwards is higher it needs in the first time a more difficult way of timing, in second places it needs more power to give the ball the velocity forwards to reach the distance to get the ball over the net on the place you want.

So when kids or adults I coach doesn't get the ball over the net with a overhand serve, the first thing I look at, is the way they throw the ball and most of the time the advice is to throw the ball less high. Another advice than is to hit the ball with a fast armswing (do you know what I mean?).

Of course kids first start on a short distance to serve to each other, and when this is correct than slowly over a longer distance. I think it's important to serve over the net right away (some coaches let there kids first serve to each other without serving over a net.

Bert

[fmfjohn 0]

medpbach,

I am really going to have to learn more about Bert's circulation volleyball because getting kids to start playing volleyball at age 5 or 6 seems to be exactly what our sport needs - in addition to a more organized approach to teaching beginning players. I also think that his comments about arm speed is an area that we don't always pickup on when we coach younger players. After a good demonstration, I get lots of my girls to make a very smooth and graceful swing, pretty well coordinated, but without power. It takes some time - and for me, a good video clip of a girl hitting it hard (or older girl demo'ing it) to get them to accelerate their forearm swing to hit it hard. I have found that having them "pound it" into the floor - like some girls do prior to serving - helps them get the feel of a harder hit. (holding the ball just below waist height, then hitting it with an almost exclusively forearm swing, which starts with the upper arm next to the body and the forearm out over the ball at about 90 degrees)

"Butterfly" drills have numerous variations, but a basic serving/serve receive drill works like this: Have one player in position 1, with a ball. Place the next player in position 5 on the other side of the net as the receiver. Place a setter/target in 3 on the receiver's side. Now, place the same 3 players in the same sequence, starting on your current receiver's side, then back across the net. You now have 6 players on the court, and each server has a ball. From here you can do alot of adjustments to suit your needs and level of play. But essentially, the servers serve to their receivers, who pass to their setters, who take the ball to the end of the server line on their side and continue the cycle. If you want to add players, you add them behind the servers and have the setter toss the ball to the next server as they go to the end of the serving line on their side.

(make sense??) Like most new drills that you introduce, I would walk them through the movement pattern for 1 or 2 cycles so they can concentrate on the skills and not have to worry so much about "where do I go next".

I think you will like this drill and find that it has lots of good variations that you can grow with.

Let us know how it goes.

john

Bert, I'm still looking for some good Dutch translation software. Thanks for your comments.

[Connie 0]

I work at a local rec center coaching 7 - 10 year olds, a class of 10 - 14 year olds, and then I coach an 8th grade team for their school season. Keeps me pretty busy...

Anyway, I always teach the young ones the form of the overhand serve. I have them move up to the net as close as it takes for them to get the ball over the net. Every time they serve it over they take a step back. Some may not get it over the net, but they are learning the proper form. Form is my concern, not necessarily the ball going over the net - this will usually come as they get bigger.

I teach them both overhand serving and underhand serving. I explain that even though they really want to learn overhand as it is "cool" they must have a reliable serve that will go over when it needs to.

I like teaching them the overhand as it is a challenge for them and when they do get it the smiles are wonderful.

[Bert 0]

I work at a local rec center coaching 7 - 10 year olds, a class of 10 - 14 year olds, and then I coach an 8th grade team for their school season. Keeps me pretty busy...

Anyway, I always teach the young ones the form of the overhand serve. I have them move up to the net as close as it takes for them to get the ball over the net. Every time they serve it over they take a step back. Some may not get it over the net, but they are learning the proper form. Form is my concern, not necessarily the ball going over the net - this will usually come as they get bigger.

I teach them both overhand serving and underhand serving. I explain that even though they really want to learn overhand as it is "cool"  they must have a reliable serve that will go over when it needs to.

I like teaching them the overhand as it is a challenge for them and when they do get it the smiles are wonderful.

Hi Connie,

I agree, I use the same method, every time they get the ball over the net they take a step back.

I was wondering when the children between 7 and 10 years old play in competition (do they???), is it then allowed to p.e. serve from 1 meter rom the net or must they serve from the backline?

Bert

.... by the way, I agree more, when chidren get the ball over the net with a overhand serve, they like it a lot!

[Connie 0]

The rec center I work for only has a teaching class, so there is really no competition. I let the class divide into teams and play but we do not keep score. My main concern is always form and moving to the ball as 90% of these kids are new to the sport.

When I coach for a competitive school team I think it depends on the league they are in as to where the kids are allowed to serve from. Some leagues allow 5th and 6th graders to step into the court to serve while others do not.

Connie

[Bert 0]

The rec center I work for only has a teaching class, so there is really no competition. I let the class divide into teams and play but we do not keep score. My main concern is always form and moving to the ball as 90% of these kids are new to the sport.

When I coach for a competitive school team I think it depends on the league they are in as to where the kids are allowed to serve from. Some leagues allow 5th and 6th graders to step into the court to serve while others do not.

Connie

Hi Connie,

Perhaps this question is something for another topig, but ........ I am just very curious. You wrote, that in the rec center you work you have only a teaching class and that there is really no competition. Don't they missed the competition?

I shall tell you something of the background of this question. Here in the Netherlands we didn't have the possibility for competition volleyball for kids younger than, let say 8 years old. Then, about almost 15 years ago a good friend of my, Adrie Noy, find out a new game. A game what not only a game but a whole method, circulation volleyball. The reason behind this game was that Adrie find out that most children like to compare, like to play games. Here in the Netherlands the kids first learn how to swim and when they have their swimming diplomes, they are allowed to search for another sport. Chilldren are then about 6 years old. When they are at this age, they can play soccer (also in competition), they can play p.e. tennis, field hockey, but they can't play volleyball in competition. Most children then choose for another sport and when they have chosen they almost always stay in this sport. The game Adrie invited can be played even at they age of 5 years old, my own son started when he was 6. At the beginning, at the first level, this game is so easy that every kid can play it also in competition. It's very popular over here and clubs who started with circulation volleyball are groing and groing. Alsmost 10 years ago I wrote an article about Adrie invention. After that we where both ask for the mini-volleyball commission of the dutch volleyball federation and now it's played all over the Netherlands. I also translated this first article in english and published it on a canadian volleyball site. There was a volleyball coach from Iceland who read the article and now it's played also over there, but also in Danmark. At this moment it's even played in some country's in Africa and when you look on Adrie website, www.volleybalnederland.nl, you will say that the questions came from over whole the world.

This was a whole story, but the mean reason of this whole idea was that children miss playing games, miss competition.

Bert

[Connie 0]

I do have some drills that I do with the kids that are competative. (Setting through a basketball hoop and see which team can get the most in a certain time allowed, Seeing which player can get the most serves over in a certain time allowed).

In the part of Oregon that I am in the kids can start playing competative sports (basketball, volleyball, baseball, football) in the 5th grade. Soccer usually begins when they are in the 1st grade or so.

The youngest kids are not physically able toplay a game yet as they are so new to the sport. I will however look at the website that you mentioned as it may be something I can use in my classes.

Connie

[Connie 0]

I was unable to get to the website www.volleyballnederland.nl did I type it in right? Could you please repeat the site?

Thanks!

[Bert 0]

I was unable to get to the website www.volleyballnederland.nl did I type it in right? Could you please repeat the site?

Thanks!

No, I am sorry!

I saw the there was a 'l' to much, the website is: www.volleybalnederland.nl

Ik hope this will do.

Bert

[Bert 0]

In the part of Oregon that I am in the kids can start playing competative sports (basketball, volleyball, baseball, football) in the 5th grade. Soccer usually begins when they are in the 1st grade or so.

The youngest kids are not physically able toplay a game yet as they are so new to the sport. I will however look at the website that you mentioned as it may be something I can use in my classes.

Connie

I hope you succeed to look on the website, circulation volleyball is in the beginning such a simple game that even children at the age of 5 can play it. In our club we have children at this age, playing this game and they enjoy it very much!

The problem you wrote about, is absolutly the biggest problem in 'the old volleyball', this is why the invention of Adrie Noy is so good!

Bert

[fmfjohn 0]

Bert,

I have been following your comments and have certainly become interested in circulation volleyball. I noticed in one of your emails in VolleyCoach.dk that you have drills on diskettes. I know that they are in Dutch, but I was wondering if they were in such a format that : I could figure them out without translating them, or the text was easy enough that my translation software could handle all or most of it? Of course, if they are mostly drills in video, all the better.

I would really like to get a copy, but, if you say "Yes" on this forum, you may have more requests than you expect

Thanks again for the participation.

john

[Bert 0]

Bert,

I have been following your comments and have certainly become interested in circulation volleyball. I noticed in one of your emails in VolleyCoach.dk that you have drills on diskettes. I know that they are in Dutch, but I was wondering if they were in such a format that : I could figure them out without translating them, or the text was easy enough that my translation software could handle all or most of it? Of course, if they are mostly drills in video, all the better.

I would really like to get a copy, but, if you say "Yes" on this forum, you may have more requests than you expect

Thanks again for the participation.

john

Hi John,

What a research you did, amazing!

Yes, of course, they are no segret. What do you want, I have compleet lessons, I have used for my own teams and I have some drills and exercises on diskettes. I must say not every exercise is used in circulation volleyball. Most of the exercises are used with teams in the age between 10 and 12 years old, and they were also playing on a high level at there age. When you look on http://www.volleybal.nl/html/j-minivolleybal.asp , you will find some exercises specially for circulation volleyball.

I have had contact with Adrie Noy and told him about this forum. The webmaster of his website is busy to translated the whole site in english. Around the world world coaches are mailing Adrie about circulation volleyball, from Central America, to Southern Asia to South and Middle Africa. He is also busy with a compleet book. He likes to translated this book also in english. He also told me he has work out some new ideas. We have prommissed each other to make an oppoinment after this weekend, to talk about his book and the new ideas. This weekend I first have a meeting with the editors of our coaches magazine.

Bert