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Coach Ronn

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It's good to see that this forum is functioning again after a hacking episode. While it's up and running, there hasn't been much activity lately, so I'd like to broach a subject most coaches will face in their careers.

When starting out with young players and when trying to "regroup" when things seem to be falling apart, there's always a "safe place" to be found in going back to basics. I define this as teaching fundamentals and defense, and always building these through teaching discipline. The key here is the word 'teaching'. The coach must break everything down and teach, or chaos will most likely rule.

Many coaches spend too much time trying to teach complicated team aspects, when the discipline, learning curves and experience of the players require more of a "building blocks" approach.

How do you coaches feel about this and handle your own situations?

Coach Ronn

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Hey Coach,

Good post, I too would like to see this site utilized more than it is. It's such a great idea. I'm constantly searching for more resourses to help me be a better coach. Here are two that have helped. The 1st one is a similar site to this one, and unfortunately it doesn't get as much use as it should either. But there are some good topics and discussions in there The second link is to an referee web site. This one gets a very high amount of posts & is very active. There's only a few coaches that post in there, otherwise it's all refs. I like it because they have a lot of rules interpretations in there, for example- most of us think we understand the back cout violation well, but until I read about it in there I didn't realize I was next to clueless. Also next seasons rules changes are posted in there same day. You can't find that any place else. After reading a lot of the threads in there, I came away with a different understanding, and a new level of respect for refs.

http://www.lesspub.com/cgi-bin/site.pl?431&cgBoard_boardID=2

http://forum.officiating.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3

Now onto the meat of your post...

Coach Ronn said- "When starting out with young players and when trying to "regroup" when things seem to be falling apart, there's always a "safe place" to be found in going back to basics. I define this as teaching fundamentals and defense, and always building these through teaching discipline. The key here is the word 'teaching'. The coach must break everything down and teach, or chaos will most likely rule."

I agree with you Coach. I coach and teach kids from 9 yrs thru High School. We pretty much go year round, between school teams, city leagues, summer leagues, tournaments, and I host a Saturday open gym from mid may thru the week of school try-outs. Over the years I've gradually changed what I focus on depending on if it's in season, or out of season. With the younger kids out of season (open gym), it's almost exclusively offensive skills that we focus on. Our open gym sessions are 1/2 structured drills, and the rest we let them play, but even then we will stop to teach. We focus on offensive skills because those skills are hardest to master, and it helps them the most to be successful in season. We work on shooting form, lots of shooting reps, including competetive shooting drills. We also put a lot of time into attacking the basket from triple threat, and off the dribble, and we work on screening, and coming off (reading) screens.

In season it's a different story. My teams are known for tough defense and no second shots. In season I emphasize defense. But as you know defense is mostly about desire and toughness. It's not hard to learn good on-ball, deny, and help technique. So I don't spend time on defense out of season, except in practice if I have a summer team, or I'm taking a team to a tournament. I have noticed they do start to get forgetful, or lazy (weakside rebounding is 1 example) if we don't work on defense every day in season.

Coach Ronn said- "Many coaches spend too much time trying to teach complicated team aspects, when the discipline, learning curves and experience of the players require more of a "building blocks" approach."

Again, I completely agree Coach. Here is part of my reply to a post on this topic in this forum from 2003-

http://www.y-coach.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=472

1. Teaching patterned offense & set plays is a waste of valuable time with kids that young. Your goal should be to teach fundamental basketball skills. Why spend 10-20 minutes of super valuable practice time working on a confusing play they rarely execute correctly, and that only accounts for maybe 15% of your scoring if you're lucky? If they only run it correctly once in a while, how long before they decide they suck? Do you want them to think they suck?

2. Your scoring (1st grade through Jr High) will come almost exclusively from offensive rebounds, lay-ups from steals & turn overs, and other "garbage." Toss in the occasional lay up off a dribble drive or a made shot from a pass and that's probably 75% to 85% of your scoring.

3. Teams have trouble scoring because kids can't shoot. It's that simple. No kind of offense will lead to higher scoring if kids can't shoot the ball. Kids need to shoot, shoot, shoot in practice, then shoot some more. Then is you can work it in, they should do more shooting.

The rest of that post is at the link I provided- if you're interested. I'm not claiming to be some kind of coaching guru, but my teams are successful and if you're like me you probably feel like you can always learn something from just about any one.

I will finish with 2 more recent observations -remember I coach girls, and they ARE different-

I see too many youngsters not focusing on what they need to most help them be successful. Eveyone of them wants to come to open gym and shoot 3's and develop a killer cross over. And I am of the school that believes in teaching all of them both perimeter skills ands post skills when they are about 13 and younger. Because you don't know for sure how they will develop by High School. But if a 14 yr old is 6'-1" kind of slow, but has good hands and feet and a desire to be a player ( I have 1 like this now)- she needs to develop post up skills. I work with her individually a lot, then I'll move onto the next kid. And sure enough when I look over at her, she's usually immediately out on the perimeter instead of working on that little baby hook shot, or a drop step, or an up and under. As a result she really has no real post up game yet. But that's not unusual for Jr High age. Had she focused on the skills over the past few off seasons that would have helped her most to be successful in HS, she would have been way ahead of the post game learning curve.

Shooting is another big one- probably the biggest. If a kid starts playing in say, 3rd, 4th, or 5th grade or below- somebody better be teaching them form. Because if they get to 12 years old with poor form, you will probably never be able to change their shot. Especially if they've had some success with the bad form.

See ya Coach

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Coach 7:

I enjoyed your post and agree with what you have stated. The sites you listed are both good for active coaches. The one for officials is good to eavesdrop on to help learn rules and how they're being interpreted and enforced. A good note here about that. On another forum, about 2-3 weeks ago, someone started a thread about how many step are allowed after a jumpstop onto both feet. The answer has to be one. However, it would be good to know how referees handle it. It's discussed in the rule book, but I think many coaches, especially those in youth programs, don't read or understand the rules. We can't watch the NBA and come away thinking we know the rules.

Any more, I only teach coaches how to teach the game and tutor college-bound players to enhance their skills and marketability. I have no use for X and O sites any more, but if I was actively coaching, there is so much free information on the web, on every aspect of the game.

On the subject of time spent on teaching offense, I think the best way to teach any offense is with the part method rather than the whole method. When the parts are working, then put them together. Especially in youth programs, I feel that a couple of special plays suffices. Most of the time players are being run in and out of the game who have no concept of a team offense. Youth leagues, boys and girls clubs, ymca programs--these should be teaching fundamentals and defense along with the discipline that will carry better players forward with their skills. Many youth are playing to be involved, but how many will be left playing at the high school level? Organized, focused and meaningful practices need be conducted at all levels, but for youth, who may only practice once or twice weekly, time on team offenses is generally wasted and squandered where more important teaching could be happening.

Let's keep this forum moving forward with more insightful threads that can benefit youth program coaches.

Yours in Sport and Spirit!

Coach Ronn

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Coach Ronn,

I think you can take it a step further and say that many youth coaches will focus everything around a couple of their stronger players. By everything I mean practice is centered around working everything to these two players. Plays are set to go to the key players the defense is developed around the key players. Very little time is spent in developing good sound fundamentals in any of the players nor in developing good future adults.

If one of the so called lessor players doesn't come back the next season then so much the better. Unfortunately, the problem doesn't just exsist because of bad coaches, the parents are just as much to blame.

If you took a group of 6 year olds and told the parents, be patient and give me time to develop each players skills, don't worry about whether we win or lose and then you go out and loose half or 3/4 quarters of your games the first year. I can guarantee half your players would not return. On the other hand if you focused everything around a couple of players and won all of your games most of your players would be back the next year and you would have parents calling you to be on your team. I know because I have tried it both ways.

Now you have club and select teams starting up for 6 and 7 year olds. You have "National Championships for all kinds of age groups for all kinds of sports all for what? MONEY. You have a multi-million or billion (probably) dollar training industry for increasing speed, power, throwing, jumping, etc. You have parents throwing money right and left because their little Johnny or Susie is going to be the next superstar. And in the end - the percent of kids who will get the opportunity to play at each level is still the same.

So focus on the fundamental most definately, but I think we also need to change the focus of why all the kids are playing in the first place. It should be to have fun, learn, get exercise and develop a lifelong love for whatever sport they enjoy. It shouldn't be so their parents can brag to all their friends that their childs team won whatever league, city championship, state championship or whatever or so for the small percentage who will get a college scholarship or go on to play professionally.

Don't get me wrong I don't think there is anything wrong with good hard nosed competition. Children need to learn to complete as they will compete their whole lives. I just think the current emphasis is too much on winning and winning at all costs.

Charlie

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Hi Charlie:

I certainly wouldn't disagree with what you are saying. Winning will probably always have its fascination. It's where the most fun is. There's always been both sides to the question, "Would you rather not play but be on a winning team, or get to play, but be on a losing team?" Yesterday it was announced that several players on the U. of Fl. team are leaving in order to be able to have playing time elsewhere. Others are staying, and new recruits are coming in, even with all five starters returning. For some, these are hard choices to make.

At the ages you mention, they are so young, that having fun and learning the basics should be enough. Parents and coaches who burden the children with winning are part of what our bigger problem in sports (and life) is all about. Most 6-9 year olds will never play when they get to high school. So, when I was talking about breaking down offense into parts, I didn't have that age group in mind. I wouldn't start this until JHS. Up to that point, any coach should feel blessed to have 1 or 2 players who know which side of the ball is up. Naturally, in that situation, some simple scoring plays could be set up for these more capable players. They are going to dominate a game anyway. While the focus needs to be on the whole group, these players need something that keeps them learning and moving forward. They are probably the ones who will play at high school. They may have enough savvy to set a pick, while the rest of the group may think a pick has something to do with their nose.

Some while back, I directed a youth sports program at a local Y. For the youngest groups I removed the score clock. Lots of crying from parents and coaches, but I prevailed by replacing coaches and parents who objected. Actually, I met with all concerned and voiced my concern that too much emphasis was being placed on winning, creating more stress than a young child needs. They are pulled from all sides with grades, x-tra curricular activities and sports. Why not let them learn how to play and have fun. Let winning be for all participants as a by-product of doing the best they are capable of, rather than creating a winner and a loser. Before this kids were going around saying "I suck" or "my team sucks". Without the score clock, everyone played half of each game, did their best and WON. Most parents and coaches were okay with the results. After I left , they went right back to having to win, and they still think that killing their opponent is an acceptable thing to do.

I have very strong feelings about the destruction of a spiritual base in raising our youngsters to voice and act like their parents, fighting or using epithets including hate, kill, destroy, etc., and baiting refs, yelling at other teams and their coaches. What kind of future are we creating with this? We are merely perpetuating what doesn't work very well right now in our society. Think Napolean Hill: The definition of insanity is in doing the same over and over, expecting a different result.

Enough soap box!

It seems you are a coach keeping in tune with what works, while questioning the values of those choices.

Best wishes for your success.

Yours in Sport and Spirit!

Coach Ronn

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Charlie,

You are right on. I am so tired of the win at all cost, it's all about my little superstar parents questioning every move I make, playing time, etc. I just want to have fun and teach the kids as much about basketball and then let them have fun. You won't see me standing up during the game screaming and hollering and walking the sidelines. I let the kids play the game and look for things I need to work on at the next practice.

I thought this was a good thing, but of course the hardcore parents now question my "laid back attitude".

I just don't get what these parents are looking for.

Keep up the good work.

Doug

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To Doug, Charlie, Coach 7 and all the others who have been following this thread:

It bothers a lot of us with the attitudes of many parents and their accompanying unrealistic expectations for children so young and the programs they are in. These are, after all children. Not adults or minature adults, and not yet in need of developing competitive skills required by middle school. THESE ARE STILL BABIES these parents would place so heavy a load on.

In your programs, or even just for your individual teams, do you have a written set of expectations, code of conduct for players and their parents, etc. Is what you expect in writing? I always recommend this and a parents/coaches meeting prior to season start to go over these things. Have the parents sign an agreement stating their cooperation and acceptance of the things you present. It makes it tougher for them to waffle later. Also, can you remove a child from the program because the parents won't cooperate? I have removed parents, players and coaches. Usually though, if you have it in writing, have a pre-season meeting with coaches about what you expect, and if coaches don't like it, they'll go elsewhere. If parents don't like it, they'll take their kids elsewhere. Now the fully, or at least barely, compliant ones left, you need to make warmed to your desires. Get their tacit approval on the dotted line and by including them in your planning. Praise them for their good sportsmanship, have them watch practices so they can see that you are emphasizing the correct fundamentals. Have them play host to visiting teams and bring refreshments for both teams for after the contest. Let parents and contestants get to know one another. Let the word of how a new order in competition is being practiced and export it. Like dropping the pebble in the pond, let it circle out to other programs. Run a successful model program and it will become a new paradigm to be copied by others.

One final suggestion. For those parents who have no clue what they may be creating with their attitudes (but, who of course, think you are weak and they are right), show them these letters. Let them know how concerned coaches feel. Better to have a "losing" program without them, than to have these kinds of parents infecting with negativity what should be a positive experience for all involved.

I'll be glad to take some of the heat for you. I have over 50 years in this game, that includes being the highly charged competitive player and coach, and then one who advocates what I've written here. I prefer the latter, as a coach, as a human being and as a spiritual entity. I coached and played all over the world. My teams have won over 75% in my lifetime of coaching. I didn't have great players. I did have some parents like these we've been talking about. We won inspite of them and hopefully the boys, girls, men and women I coached learned some lesons that will make them better parents now that it's their turn. At the risk of sounding commercial, you could send them to my website, www.BasketballOnATriangle.com. Let them see for themselves how it can be, if only they will view change with an open mind.

Thanks, coaches, for who you are and what you represent.

Yours in Sport and Spirit!

Coach Ronn

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Coaches,

There is some great information being thrown around here. Hopefully we can start making a difference one coach and one player and one parent at a time.

I think we have all been there at one time or another and that is the whole idea behind this site - keep learning and keep growing.

Good luck to all.

Schann

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