10 replies to this topic

[CoachBobM]

Our local league uses a five run per inning limit for our 6-7 year old pitching machine kids. This has been in place at least three years now (probably more). This year our new commisioner has dictated that we will still use this limit except for the bottom half of the last inning. The home team will have an opportunity to score up to ten runs this inning. Does this make sense to anyone? He has told us that this rule is "straight from Pennsylvania" and is refusing to even consider changing it.

My question is, how can it be fair to allow one team the opportunity (by rule) to score more than the other team? Any opinions would be appreciated, but I'm more interested in knowing if this is a Little League rule?


Thanks

[slogar1]

To my knowledge, this is not in the Little league rule book but I could be wrong. I am more familiar with the Little League rule book from Minor League on up. But our local league has been using such rules for years now here in Ohio. It started in the 7-8 year old division and has been extended to the 9-10 year old division as well as the 8 year old & under tournament that we've been running since 1986. However, the rule pertaining to the last inning is extended to both teams. Two formats have been used: in the last inning, there is no run limit for either team, which gives BOTh teams a chance to win. The most recent rule change is a limit of 10 runs in the last inning for BOTH teams. Thus, if the visiting team is up by more than 11 runs in the bottom of the last inning, the game is over, and if the home team is up by 11 or more in the top of the next to last inning, the game is over. The Little League rule book allows organizations to adopt local rules. If your organiztion choses to adopt a run rule, it should make it apply to both teams, IMO.

[synwave7]

If we are talking Little League Inc. Chartered league and your 6-7 yr old league is chartered as a Minors League then yes the 5 run rule is a "real rule".

It's definatly in the Little League Incorporated Official Regulation and Playing Rules "Green Book". It's on page 53 and listed under the definition of "Inning". It was instituted last year and hasn't change in any way for this year. Officially there is no "open inning" if you will. EVERY inning is limited to 5 runs.

I will say this though - someone in your orginization may have put in for a waiver to allow "an open inning" but it aint in the book nor is it an official rule.

I just now read the other post here on this topic and I assure you local leagues can only change this 5 run rule "officially" if you put in for a waiver and have it granted by WP. Your league can obviously do whatever they want as far as local rules but it dont mean they are official or within LLI rules.


Syn

[Coach Larry]

That is definitely not fair. Our league uses the "unlimited" LAST INNING. That means both visitor and home have the opportunity to score runs. I don't know what he is thinking only giving the Home team the ability to score 10 in the last inning. Doesn't make sense at all...

[slogar1]

OK, I have an answer for you. I just got the phone to Little League Central Region HQs in Indianapolis. Little League adopted the max 5 runs/inning rule 2 years ago and it applies to Minor League. I was correct. A waiver is not needed to alter this rule as Little League gives local leagues the right to adopt their own rules (he said to see page 11). He also said there are leagues that don't even keep score and that is their right so, in this case, whatever the local Association decides concerning run limitations can be binding, it is not black & white by LL rules. If you are santioned LL, you need to talk to the District Representative; if not, what your Association determines can be binding but, as told to me, it should be an Association decision, not implimented by one person. As I stated in my earlier post, our Association gives BOTH teams an equal scoring opportunity in the last inning. Locally the norm is to use a max 10 run rule limit in the last inning, pertaining to both teams, thus, if either team is down by 11 runs or more before their LAST at bat, it is considered a mercy rule and the game is over. Anything less, the game continues to its entirety. Hope this helps.

[synwave7]

OK, I have an answer for you. I just got the phone to Little League Central Region HQs in Indianapolis. Little League adopted the max 5 runs/inning rule 2 years ago and it applies to Minor League. I was correct. A waiver is not needed to alter this rule as Little League gives local leagues the right to adopt their own rules (he said to see page 11). He also said there are leagues that don't even keep score and that is their right so, in this case, whatever the local Association decides concerning run limitations can be binding, it is not black & white by LL rules. If you are santioned LL, you need to talk to the District Representative; if not, what your Association determines can be binding but, as told to me, it should be an Association decision, not implimented by one person. As I stated in my earlier post, our Association gives BOTH teams an equal scoring opportunity in the last inning. Locally the norm is to use a max 10 run rule limit in the last inning, pertaining to both teams, thus, if either team is down by 11 runs or more before their LAST at bat, it is considered a mercy rule and the game is over. Anything less, the game continues to its entirety. Hope this helps.

Page 11 states this: (among a lot of other things regarding rules)
The local league operates under a charter granted annually by Little League. The league is autonomous in the sense of having freedom to elect its own officers, finance its program and carry on various other related functions, but it must adhere SCRUPULOUSLY to all rules and regulations established by Little League.


It goes onto say your charter can be revoked or suspended if you dont follow the rules. It also goes onto to talk of getting waivers for rules the league locally intends not to follow in so many words.

I wont argue the fact that local leagues can adopt thier own rules. But I know better than a local league can interpret or "not follow" a LLI rule without getting a waiver. Its simply not true. I'd love to talk to whoever you talked to at HQ's I'm in the Central Region as well. Local leagues rules must be within the guidlines of the LLI rules. Especially a rule like this 5 run rule where its in the green book and clearly states 5 run rule. I'm not saying your wrong but I sure would like to talk to whoever you talked to at HQ cause I've never known any LLI rule where a local league can adopt or define thier own interpretation of a rule dictated by LLI. You must get a waiver for any rule you want to supercede or locally define. And this starts with your District Admin. Who did you speak to at Central Region HQ's?

Syn

[slogar1]

I'm not going to argue with you. I have umpired LL for 30 years and served on various league boards for 20+ years. I know the book allows local chapters to adopt their own rules (or modify them w/o a waiver) but I have neither the time nor the patience to look up specifics, which is why I called Indianapolis. The gentleman I talked to confirmed what I have read & understood and how we've run our leagues for years. Call the Indianapolis LL number and tell them you have a question about a baseball rule and ask for "Mike" (I called about 1 pm. EST). I have talked to him years prior so I know he has been there for quite some time. The only thing I ask is that you come back and be totally honest with his reply.

[CoachBobM]

Thanks for the replies. It's probably too late to change what's in place but I'll pass this info on to people in our organization.

[synwave7]

I'm not going to argue with you. I have umpired LL for 30 years and served on various league boards for 20+ years. I know the book allows local chapters to adopt their own rules (or modify them w/o a waiver) but I have neither the time nor the patience to look up specifics, which is why I called Indianapolis. The gentleman I talked to confirmed what I have read & understood and how we've run our leagues for years. Call the Indianapolis LL number and tell them you have a question about a baseball rule and ask for "Mike" (I called about 1 pm. EST). I have talked to him years prior so I know he has been there for quite some time. The only thing I ask is that you come back and be totally honest with his reply.

slogar1,
Hey a good ol' gentlemenly argument is good for the sole brother. A little back and forth. Anyway, I wasn't actually arguing per se. I know what I know and whether regional told you one thing or not, they told me another thing or rather were very elusive in thier answer to me. Having said that you ended your last reply with a "The only thing I ask is that you come back and be totally honest with his reply". Like I need to lie to you. I too am on a board both youth and highschool and have been involved at just about every level you can think of for 14yrs. Whatever that has to do with anything. Anyway, for what reason would I be anything but honest with regionals reply?!?!? What are you getting at????

I asked regional if any league could "make up stuff" as they go along without a waiver basically. Thier reply was to direct me how to get a waiver. Thats it nothing more nothing less.

And I still stand by what I said. The answer is flat-out NO. Leagues cannot supercede any WP rule without a waiver period, regardless of what regional may have or have not said to you or me. I'm not sure what it is your reading so let me ask you this.

Whats your interpretation of the following...

When a league applies for it's annual charter with LLI it pledges to abide by all the rules and regs of LLI. However unders special circumstances, it may become needed to apply for a tempaorary waiver of a rule or regulation. It is very important to remember that a league must not take any action contrary to Little League rules and regs until recieving expressed , written permission through the Charter Committee waiver system.

Is your interpretation that "I know the book allows local chapters to adopt their own rules (or modify them w/o a waiver)"

Let's be clear that I too think and know leagues can adopt thier own rules and regs in fact they are encouraged to do so. But that does not mean they can interpret or change rules however they like WITHOUT A WAIVER.

Syn

[slogar1]

I've been living on 3-4 of sleep this week. I work midnights so, by the time I come on here I am pretty well toast. I understand what you are saying and I have had many discussions like this over the years where people quote things out of the rulebook and been wrong (ie. applying tournament rules to regular season games). I admitted I was not sure of the rule, which is my I called regional. (When I was younger, I called Williamsport many times and spent hours talking to Dr. Hale, national head honcho of the rules committee; GREAT GUY!). In my discussion with Mike at LL Indianapolis, my questions were very distinct & specific regardong the 5 run rule (not "can a league make up stuff as they go along"). Make no mistake that his answers were also very specific: people do not have to use the 5 run rule, can invoke a 10 run rule in the last inning, can invoke a no run limit in the last inning. As he said, if people do not want to keep score, they may do that also and ALL W/O A WAIVER. Yes, I kept asking him that point-blank with every question. Mike actually got a little irritated with me (like I was asking stupid questions? like I was being too persistent?) and told me I could find all the answers in the rule book. Rule modification, made by a league at the beginning of the season, is a far cry from "making things up as they go along". I am going to try and take the time this weekend, break out the book, and see if I can find the section that covers all this but, for now, I will take the word of a guy that does this for a living.
We've really gotten off the subject of trying to help CoachBob. Sorry it's too late to make things right with your organization but when your Commissioner told you his rule came "straight from Pa." I would doubt that but it sounds like you must live with the rule for now. I'm assuming you are not sanctioned LL but use the LL rule book, thus your coaches should lobby your Association's Board of Directors for rules changes for the good of all. Regardless, after everyone sees how unfair the rule is, I'm certain it will be changed; too bad some kids may get hurt during the learning curve. Good luck.

[Orange]

I think it's kind of interesting that they even keep score in a 6-7 year old division of LL. I coach in that age group and we have a 5-run rule for each and every inning. Nobody keeps score, not officially anyway. We often ask each other if we've scored 5 yet and have to count back and use our advanced math skills. My kids always "know" the score, and we are always winning, even if we really aren't they think so . My experience is that when you get to the last inning, the kids, parents and coaches are ready for the game to end so I can't imagine a 10-run inning. 5 seems like a lifetime sometimes. And we have a competitive, well run league, one that placed a team in the LL World Series 4-5 years ago.

And only giving one team a chance to score 10 runs in a half an inning is silly. I've never heard of something like that.