Rules Help

[keimig 0]

I coach a 4th grade team, and this weekend a call raised some discussion. I cannot find an exact interpretation in any rule book, so any help is appreciated. The other team was faced with a 4th down and about 25. They punted. The punt was very short, it only traveled about 10 yards. One of my players made the mistake of trying to field the punt, and bobbled the catch. The punting team then recovered the ball without advancement. The spot was still at least 10 yards short of the first down marker. My question is, who gets possession of the ball? I know in a blocked punt situation, the receiving team would gain possession if the kicking team did not advance it past the first down marker. The officials gave the ball to the kicking team with a first and ten. Are they correct? Remarkably, this very same thing happened to a 6th grade team I was coaching about ten years ago, and the ball was awarded to the receiving team? Any thoughts????? Thanks, Willy

[Maleko 0]

I coach a 4th grade team, and this weekend a call raised some discussion. I cannot find an exact interpretation in any rule book, so any help is appreciated. The other team was faced with a 4th down and about 25. They punted. The punt was very short, it only traveled about 10 yards. One of my players made the mistake of trying to field the punt, and bobbled the catch. The punting team then recovered the ball without advancement. The spot was still at least 10 yards short of the first down marker. My question is, who gets possession of the ball? I know in a blocked punt situation, the receiving team would gain possession if the kicking team did not advance it past the first down marker. The officials gave the ball to the kicking team with a first and ten. Are they correct? Remarkably, this very same thing happened to a 6th grade team I was coaching about ten years ago, and the ball was awarded to the receiving team? Any thoughts????? Thanks, Willy

As far as I know, once the punt cleared the LOS, and your team touched the ball, it became a live ball and whomever recovers, gets 1st and ten.

[mlbryant 0]

As far as I know, once the punt cleared the LOS, and your team touched the ball, it became a live ball and whomever recovers, gets 1st and ten.

That's the way I understand it as well. Think of the muffed punt as a turnover

[dbcoach 0]

That surprises me. I always thought that the kicking team needed to advance the ball 10 yrds from original point of possession to get a first down. (barring penalties, etc.) How does the fact that the ball was touched by the defense really play into the ruling? What if the ball was not touched and the offensive player that recovered the kick was On Side?

With the yards not gained, would it still be first & ten - kicking team?

[Maleko 0]

That surprises me. I always thought that the kicking team needed to advance the ball 10 yrds from original point of possession to get a first down. (barring penalties, etc.) How does the fact that the ball was touched by the defense really play into the ruling? What if the ball was not touched and the offensive player that recovered the kick was On Side?

With the yards not gained, would it still be first & ten - kicking team?

The "defense" touching the ball signals the change of possession (thus becoming the offense). That point is 100% of the reason why the former offense didn't need to advance the ball at all. If the ball had not been touched by the receiving team, it would have been a dead ball, 1st and 10 for the receiving team (i.e. the defense in your wording) no matter where on the field the kicking team recovered it (unless the punt never cleared the LOS).

[keimig 0]

Thanks for the input, and I do not disagree with the comments. My confusion comes from the fact that I have seen this called both ways. I guess I was looking for a clear explanation ie. a rule book that defines this situation. Our league plays under the Missouri High School rulebook, with some slight league modifications. Here is another thought, and I know this is a stretch, but give this consideration.

Let's say a team is behind and desperate to maintain possession of the ball. If the interpretation on this forum is correct, then could a team pooch punt the ball back into the scrum area, meaning the "crowd" at the LOS on a punt in hopes that the ball would be batted around and hopefully recovered by the kicking team in order to regain a first down??? I know this is a stretch, but a team could nearly pull off an on side kick so to speak! In any case, the rule seems a bit cloudy to me. Funny thing is, I am in my 11th year coaching youth football, and I learn new things all of the time.

Willy

[Maleko 0]

Thanks for the input, and I do not disagree with the comments. My confusion comes from the fact that I have seen this called both ways. I guess I was looking for a clear explanation ie. a rule book that defines this situation. Our league plays under the Missouri High School rulebook, with some slight league modifications. Here is another thought, and I know this is a stretch, but give this consideration.

Let's say a team is behind and desperate to maintain possession of the ball. If the interpretation on this forum is correct, then could a team pooch punt the ball back into the scrum area, meaning the "crowd" at the LOS on a punt in hopes that the ball would be batted around and hopefully recovered by the kicking team in order to regain a first down??? I know this is a stretch, but a team could nearly pull off an on side kick so to speak! In any case, the rule seems a bit cloudy to me. Funny thing is, I am in my 11th year coaching youth football, and I learn new things all of the time.

Willy

I am not sure of punting it into the line would work (as the refs would have to be 100% clear that A it passed the LOS and B the receiving team touched it), however a punt that arches up over the line and drops 5-10 yards behind the LOS would work, assuming that the receiver did not wave for a fair catch, and did drop the ball. The reward would have to be pretty high as the potential for giving up a bunch of field position is high trying that.

[dbcoach 0]

The "defense" touching the ball signals the change of possession (thus becoming the offense). That point is 100% of the reason why the former offense didn't need to advance the ball at all. If the ball had not been touched by the receiving team, it would have been a dead ball, 1st and 10 for the receiving team (i.e. the defense in your wording) no matter where on the field the kicking team recovered it (unless the punt never cleared the LOS).

Sorry there Maleko. Didn't mean to say something stupid. I coach Canadian football (slightly different rules). It's easy to forget that (my bad). In Canadian football rules a team does not gain posession by touching the ball (unless it goes directly out of bounds as a live ball). Thus, the 'offense' would remain the 'offense' in this case. But we are talking American rules...

So, In American rules a change of possession gives you a first down? I mean, of course, if the recovering team was the 'defense' to begin with. But if the ball changes hands twice?

i.e.: 3rd and 10 Team B. Ball is stripped by team A who is hit immediately after and then fumbles. Team B recovers the fumble say, 5 yds behind the LOS.

1st a and Ten Team B?

or

4th and 15 Team B?

Funny, In Canadian rules that situation would land you with 1st and ten Team A!

In what other situations besides punts does touching the ball give you possession? Not a pass, I watch enough NFL and NCAA ball to know that. How about lateral passes?

2nd and 10, Team A. Team A attempts a backward pass. Team B tips the pass, it bounces on the ground team A covers the ball 5 yds behind the LOS.

3rd and 15, Team A?

or

1st and 10, Team A?

I would think 3rd and 15, but from your explanation, Team B may have 'possessed' the ball, and change of possession gives you a 1st down.

Cheers,

dbc

[Maleko 0]

<snipping into sections for easier answering>

Sorry there Maleko. Didn't mean to say something stupid. I coach Canadian football (slightly different rules). It's easy to forget that (my bad). In Canadian football rules a team does not gain posession by touching the ball (unless it goes directly out of bounds as a live ball). Thus, the 'offense' would remain the 'offense' in this case. But we are talking American rules...

You said nothing stupid. I wasn't sure you were asking what I heard. Sorry if I came across wrong :-(

So, In American rules a change of possession gives you a first down? I mean, of course, if the recovering team was the 'defense' to begin with. But if the ball changes hands twice?

i.e.: 3rd and 10 Team B. Ball is stripped by team A who is hit immediately after and then fumbles. Team B recovers the fumble say, 5 yds behind the LOS.

1st a and Ten Team B?

or

4th and 15 Team B?

IF Team A had possession (ball under "control") then yes it is 1st and 10 Team B. If Team A's player did not have "control" of the ball (control being subjective on the part of the refs), then it is 4th and 15 got Team B.

Funny, In Canadian rules that situation would land you with 1st and ten Team A!

Not my fault the US' little brother gets things wrong sometimes :-) (j/k)

In what other situations besides punts does touching the ball give you possession? Not a pass, I watch enough NFL and NCAA ball to know that. How about lateral passes?

AFAIK, this only occurs during punts. I'm no ref, nor rule guru, so I may be (and prob am) wrong on this. All other situations that I am aware of require "control". The key here is that the ball MUST cross the LOS for the touch to matter. Bare with me here and I'll try to explain it as I understand it. The ball when punted is a "live ball" meaning that any team can advance it. Once it crosses the LOS (only if it crosses the LOS on the kick however), it becomes a "dead ball" meaning only the team that is considered to have possesion can advance the ball. It is the crossing of the LOS that changes possession. If the receiving team makes any contact at all with the ball, after it crossed the LOS, then it becomes a "live ball" again. Is that any better for you, or have I made it worse? (I'm good at making explinations worse)

2nd and 10, Team A. Team A attempts a backward pass. Team B tips the pass, it bounces on the ground team A covers the ball 5 yds behind the LOS.

3rd and 15, Team A?

or

1st and 10, Team A?

3rd and 15. A lateral/backwards pass (again AFAIK) is still a "live ball" so unless Team B had control, it is still Team A's ball.

I would think 3rd and 15, but from your explanation, Team B may have 'possessed' the ball, and change of possession gives you a 1st down.

Cheers,

dbc

(taking a second shot here, sorry if the first one hit the mark) It is the kick crossing the LOS that changes possession, it is the receiving team's touch that changes the ball from "dead" to "live".

[dbcoach 0]

(taking a second shot here, sorry if the first one hit the mark) It is the kick crossing the LOS that changes possession, it is the receiving team's touch that changes the ball from "dead" to "live".

Wow. That's something I didn't know about american rules. So you just can't do On Side punts? Makes sense, how would an ON Side player be required to react to the "fair catch" signal.

It's interesting how those seemingly little differences in rules can have really broad effects on the nature of the game. In our game, there is no fair catch rule. Kicking team players who were ahead of the kicker at the time of the kick must keep 5 yds between themselves and the ball untill the recieving team touches it. Kicking team players that were behind the kicker (and the kicker himself) are On Side and do not have to give the 5 yards and can recover the kick.

Also, matters of ball possession are only addressed at the time that the play is ruled dead. So no matter what happens between the whistles, the offensive side can only be awarded a 1st down if they possess the ball up field of the sticks when the play is ruled dead.

Thanks for the info Maleko. It would be interesting to have an exhibition game between American and Canadian teams. 1st half, play American rules, 2nd half, Canadian rules. The game looks the same, but those seemingly little nuances make a world of difference.

Cheers and good luck!

dbc

[keimig 0]

I appreciate all of the discussion on this topic. It would seem however, that everything on here is simply a matter of interpretation. Does anyone know of a rulebook of any kind that would describe this situation? If not, than I suppose the only interpretation that matters is that of the official during the game.

Willy